Ayami - 6th grade: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 8:54AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Dr. Johnson - have the Chumash done any stone constructions linked to the stars?

Tsunami - 9th grade: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 8:55AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Dr. Johnson - which Chumash Cerimonies link to the stars?

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 8:56AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Hello: This is John Anderson, checking in with you. It is raining in north Idaho, and the mountains above Lake Pend Oreille are white with snow.

Timothy - Camp: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 8:59AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Good Morning John and welcome back to Camp Internet.

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:02AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Ayami: The Chumash did use stones to define the area of a number of shrines, which had astronomical purposes. A typical use of stones was to create a large circle around a marker pole, which may have 'marked' the east-west or north-south lines (directions). But the Chumash did not use stone structures, as for example the tribes of Arizonia and New Mexico, for astronomical observations. Instead, they used wooden objects to 'mark' the solstice and other astronomical events.

Silvia - Camp Internet: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:02AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Dr. Johnson - have any studies been done linking Chumash beliefs (re: exploring reincarnation theology as taught by the traditional Chumash Indians of California which you discuss in your Bio) with reincarnation beliefs of the Tibetians?

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:02AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Welcome John - we are just starting our astronomy section of Camp Internet this week and will be beginning with archaeoastronomy - California sites as well as those around the world. Can you tell us about different sites you may have had a chance to visit ? medicine wheels ? or Chumash rock art sites with star maps ? Or what you understand the importance of these types of sites to be for their own culture - and for ours ?

Paradise Home School: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:04AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Dr. Johnson - are there any Chumash dances that are related to stars or astronomical observations?

Darlene, 6th grade teacher: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:06AM PST (-0800 GMT)
We have seen a reference to the Chumash stone disks-on-sticks that are hand-held artifacts, carved, and suggested to be some type of astronomical device ? If you agree with this idea of what they were, how do you think they were used ?

Ayami - 6th grade: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:06AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Is there any California Indian artwork that was done for star mapping or astronomy?

Victoria Back2Backcountry: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:07AM PST (-0800 GMT)
The Victoria Back2Backcountry is here.

Tsunami - 9th grade: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:07AM PST (-0800 GMT)
What relationshio did the stars or astronomy have to healing for Native Americans in this area?

Tsunami - 9th grade: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:08AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Dr. Johnson - what did the Chumash believe the stars were? Distant objects or spirits or ...

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:10AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Here is a button that links to an interesting page comparing the Native American star-watching stone medicine wheels to a European compass ....

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:11AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Silvia: I am not aware of any specific studies comparing the Chumash and Tibetan beliefs about reincarnation. But this is an interesting area of study, because the Chumash beliefs are fascinating in their similarities with the Tibetan beliefs. This does not mean that the Chumash were Tibetans, but rather suggests that they shared an ancient core belief system which was widespread long before modern religions developed. Reincarnation is a key to understanding both the Tibetan and Chumash theologies, and it was the belief in reincarnation which definitively separated the Chumash Traditionalists from the Catholic Europeans who invaded California in the eighteenth century. The Spanish and later Mexicans did not believe in reincarnation.

Paradise Home School: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:20AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Dr. Anderson - is there any relationship you have found in the Astronomy beliefs of northern california and southern california native people?

The Victoria Shooting Stars: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:23AM PST (-0800 GMT)
The Victoria Shooting Stars are here.

Brittany and Bibiana: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:25AM PST (-0800 GMT)
This is Brittany and Bibiana speaking!

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:25AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Marcy: There are many Chumash shrines which are oriented to the celestial realm. This reflects the Chumash belief that the stars, planets, sun, moon, and other celestial objects were divine and influenced life on earth. I speak of these topics in my book called the Chumash House of Fate, which describes the 'gambling gods' of the Chumash. There are four leading gods, with the Eagle (north star) and Sun on one side and Coyote and Morning Star on the other side. Depending on which side won in the heavenly contests between the gods, humanity was rewarded or suffered. See button and button for more information. It is impossible to know with certainty what all the pictographs and petroglyphs done by the Chumash signify. Personally, I believe that a large number had astronomical inspiration but this is impossible to prove. An interesting example of an astronomically associated site is the crystal wall site near the Slick 6 Spaceport launch site on the Vandenberg Air Force Base (a Kagismuwas Chumash site). The development of the California Spaceport near this spiritual site has benerated a good deal of debate in the last few years. You can read about this debate (and the significance of such sites to Traditional Chumash) at button

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:31AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Paradise School: There are many significant similarities between the astronomical beliefs of the California native peoples generally. This is true when making comparisons between tribes in northern and southern California, but is not always true since there is a wide spectrum of religious beliefs among the native peoples. An especially interesting comparision between northern and southern tribes involves the Chumash and the Pomo Indians who live north of San Francisco. The Pomo are an ancient peoples of California (as are the Chumash) and they have remarkably similar myths! And the Achumawi Indians are another Hokan group, which I cite in my books on the Chumash, because of their similarities.

Adrianna and Kristin: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:34AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Hello, this is Adrianna and Kristin ready to chat.

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:35AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Welcome Victoria Elementary students from Riverside - today we are talking with Dr. John Anderson about how the stars were an important part of the California Chumash view of their universe, their religion, and their own life. Please post any related questions .....

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:42AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Tsunami Well, you have brought up a very important issue. The Chumash, like many other peoples in the pre-scientific era of studying astronomical bodies, believed that the stars and planets and comets (etc) were divine celestial beings. Similar beliefs could be found in ancient Europe, and they profoundly affected the belief systems of both the Chumash and Europeans. My book called Chumash Astrology You can read about Chumash astrology at: button and in Hudson and Underhay's book called Crystals In the Sky. My book called the Chumash House of Fate presents a critique of Hudson and Underhay, and I propose that the Chumash celestial Eagle is identified with the North Star, and that the Chumash Coyote deity is identified with the brilliant star Sirius which is located in the south sky opposite the north star. You can read about this book at: button

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:43AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Hello Adrianna and Kristin: What do you want to chat about?

Adrianna and Kristin: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:47AM PST (-0800 GMT)
We want to know more about Chumash.

Brittany and Bibiana: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:48AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Dr. Johnson can you me more about the chumas?

IMS-Mrs. Perez, Outpost Leader: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:49AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Here are the questions formulated by my first class this morning before the chat began: 1. What did the Chumash and Gabrielinos think the stars were? 2. What did the Native Americans think an eclipse was? 3. Did the Chumash have legends to go with all the stars and constellations? 4. Did the Native Americans have answers to questions you cannot prove wrong today? 5. Were the moon, sun, and stars considered gods?

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:50AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Tsunami: You can find a discussion of my book on Chumash Astrology at : button I find my emails with people who read this text very interesting. Personally, I am not convinced of the validity of astrological teachings, although I am willing to consider the possibility that (somehow, as yet undetermined) some astonomical bodies affect life here on earth. But to date, there is little hard evidence to confirm this hypothetical influence, except of course the heat of the sun, sun spots, the pull of the moon on the earth..... But if you read any major newspaper in California, you will see that millions of people still find astrology interesting enough to read that section! Hmmm...?

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:10AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Here is a link to a beautiful map of the night sky that shows constellations at Winter Solstice, and it notes Native American star names from the Lakota. it can be printed out and used to study the stars in the evening from home.

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:13AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Mrs. Perez: (-0800 GMT) 1. The Tongva (Gabrielinos) were a distinct people from the Chudmash, having entered the Los Angeles Basin quite late compared to the Chumash whose roots in the region are very, very old. The religion of the Uto-Aztecan Tongva is different from the Chumash, although they did share many beliefs in common. The Tongva, for example, had a similar set of leading deities as those described in my book called Chumash House of Fate. But it is not clear whether the Tongva (and other Uto-Aztecans living on the fringe of the Los Angeles basin) believed in reincarnation. This one issue alone would profoundly distinguish any two religious communities, as it did the invading Christians who came into California and repressed the Chumash religion because of such teachings about reincarnation. [and, by the way, the Chumash thought the stars were souls, both human and divine. The human souls were clustered on the Milky Way, which was the Path of the Dead leading to the constellation Aquila which was considered the Chumash Land of the Dead. Hudson and Underhay's book called Crystals in the Sky, provides a good introduction to this topic]. You can read about the Tongva and Chumash, who lived in the San Fernando Valley, at: button 2. The Chumash did not have legends to go with all the stars, but a large number of legends have been passed down to us. Many can be read in Blackburn's collection of narratives which is called December's Child. This text is a basic source of information on Chumash astronimcal beliefs. You can find a list of my books on Chumash mythology at: button 4. The Native Americans are a very diverse group of people, with distinctive cultures and religious beliefs. So I cannot generalize about whether they had answers to important questions that cannot be answered by contemporary Ameircans. But I will say this, the Chumash historian F.L. Kitsepawit did teach that greed rules the world and he warned his audience against the power of greed to damage our lives. I think this is good advice, and many contemporary Americans might learn from this old Chumash man who died in the beginning of the twentieth century. See button for information about his life. And see button for information on other Chumash people of signifiance. 5. Yes, the Chumash believed that the sun, moon, and stars were divine. This was a common belief among ancient peoples worldwide, and similar beliefs in the Mediterranean world influenced Hebrew and early Christian religious developments.

: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:31AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Paradise Home School: Yes, the Chumash did develop special dance performances that were inspired by the celestial bodies, their movements, and their spiritual importance to humans living on the earth. F.L. Kitsepawit describes a number of these dances in detail, in Breath of the Sun (edited by Travis Hudson). And Hudson and Underhay include important dance performance information in their book called Crystals in the Sky. Martina Leqte is a famous Traditional Chumash singer and dancer, who performed dances with astronomical and calendral significance. See button for information on her life and art. Also see button for a web page on her aunt, who was the last governor of the Island Chumash and a patron of Chumash dance in her old age, when she lived in Ventura near the miossion.

IMS/2-Mrs. Perez, Outpost Leader: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:33AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Thank you for answering those qestions so thoroughly. My second class just finished their questions before going to luch so I will post theirs now. 1. How did the Native Americans you have studied think the moon and the stars came to be? 2. Did the Native Americans draw the stars? 3. How did they react when they experienced an eclipse?

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:36AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Rattlesnake Shelter: the rock art site near the California Spaceport is called Rattlesnake shelter. G. Lee and R. Hyder researched this site, and have a lot to say about it on their web pages. Quartz ("a magical substance") causes the shelter's cliff to sparkle in the sunlight. This

Victoria Chumash: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:38AM PST (-0800 GMT)
The Victoria Chumash are here!!!

Victoria Chumash: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:42AM PST (-0800 GMT)
How do you see the shape of the Lakota stars?

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:44AM PST (-0800 GMT)
John - we tried the links you suggested int he following posting, but they are not working - is there another set of links ? we are very interested to learn more ............: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:31AM PST (-0800 GMT) Paradise Home School: Yes, the Chumash did develop special dance performances that were inspired by the celestial bodies, their movements, and their spiritual importance to humans living on the earth. F.L. Kitsepawit describes a number of these dances in detail, in Breath of the Sun (edited by Travis Hudson). And Hudson and Underhay include important dance performance information in their book called Crystals in the Sky. Martina Leqte is a famous Traditional Chumash singer and dancer, who performed dances with astronomical and calendral significance. See button for information on her life and art. Also see button for a web page on her aunt, who was the last governor of the Island Chumash and a patron of Chumash dance in her old age, when she lived in Ventura near the miossion.

back2backcountry: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:48AM PST (-0800 GMT)
What kinds of dances???

victoria back2backcountry: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:49AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Hello Dr. john victoria back2backcountry is on!

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:50AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Mrs Perez: 1. I have worked with the Salish peoples of the Northwest and the Chumash peoples of California. There is no single pattern for all of these diverse people, concerning the creation of the moon and stars. But there are many legends that have survived on this topic. The stars were considered the visible souls of great divine beings who dwelled in the heavens. Human souls could also be seen, walking on the Milky Way which was the Path of the Dead. But as a general rule, the beginnings of the divine souls is not discussed in native myth, since it occurred in mythic time which is not linear. We do know that human souls were created after those of the gods, however. 1-b Native California myths about the creation of the sun and moon are more frequently encountered than those about the creation of the stars. Typically, a bird flies the sun and moon into the sky after it is built by the First People living here on the earth. They are sometimes built of straw and put to flame (the moon doesn't burn as well). The bird that finally flies the sun and moon into the sky is celebrated, for it brought light into the day and night. 2. Native Amricans definitely drew the stars, in star maps which were not only drawn on rock but also on leather, etc. And certain basket designs and bead designs represent the sprits dwelling in the heavens (although the exact spirit is not always known today). 3. The Chumash described an eclipse as happening when the divine Eagle (the north star, in my opinion) became restless and stretched out his wing. The wing temporarily covered the sun or moon, but was soon drawn away and things went back to normal. You can learn about these types of beliefs in Blackburn's collection of Chumash myths called December's Child.

Victoria Back2Backcountry: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:50AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Do you enjoy your job?

back2backcountry: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:50AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Matt is very imature. Do you enjoy your job Dr. Jhon?

Victoria Back2backcountry: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:51AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Hi. What's the wierdest thing you've ever seen in the sky.

James Monro: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:51AM PST (-0800 GMT)
gfdgfdg

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:54AM PST (-0800 GMT)
I apologize for throwing that huge star map up there - I intended to give you a link to it so you can print it out. Here is the link to the page it is on, scan down it to the yellow Large Star Map link, and when you open that you will have the map in a way you can print I hope. button

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:55AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Leqte: The web page for Martina Leqte (the dancer) is at: button The web page for her aunt (the governor of the islands) is at button The web page with many more biographies of Chumash leaders is at button I have heard from many students who find these particular web pages of interest. They say that they like to know about the lives of real people, who actually lived and struggled to preserve their way of life in towns of Ventura, Santa Barbara, SLO, Kern, and Los Angeles counties.

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:56AM PST (-0800 GMT)
John - were you able to catch the Leonid meteor shower this year ?

Ruben and Edward from Madison: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:58AM PST (-0800 GMT)
How many indian tribes are there in California?

Ruben and Edward from Madison: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:58AM PST (-0800 GMT)
How many indian tribes are there in California?

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 10:59AM PST (-0800 GMT)
GENERAL INFORMATION ON THE CHUMASH A number of you asked about how to find more information on the Chumash, on the web. The biggest web page on the Chumash is at button Over 60,000 people have looked at this page and the large number of linked Chumash web pages available through this site. Be sure to keep this URL written down somewhere, since it is the key to learning more about the fascinating Chumash.

James Monroe : . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:01AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Did the native americans worship the stars? - Vanessa

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:01AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Marcy: My wife went out to enjoy the Leonid meteor shower but the sky was totally obscured with clouds. Oh what a disappointment. Friends called to say they were impressed, indeed. So, maybe next time.

James Monroe: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:04AM PST (-0800 GMT)
how much geravity is on the moon?

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:05AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Such interesting questions in this chat today - and in-depth answers from our Trail Guide. We are nearing time to wrap it up, so post any last questions please.

John Anderson: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:06AM PST (-0800 GMT)
James Monroe: This is a difficult question to answer. In on sense, you could say that the native Americans worshipped the stars because they believed them to be divine. But it would be a mistake to think that the spark of divinity (soul) was ONLY located in the heavens, since the Chumash and other native peoples saw divinity all around them in the material world, as well as the heavens. Keep in mind, when studying the Chumash religion, that it is ancient and shares many venerable traditions with such religions as Hinduism, and Asian religions where reincarnation was a basic tenant of faith.

James Monroe: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:06AM PST (-0800 GMT)
How many miles from the earth to the sun

James Moonroe: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:07AM PST (-0800 GMT)
How mush geravty is on the moon

James Monroe: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:07AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Have you ever been to ploto?

Timothy - Camp: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:07AM PST (-0800 GMT)
John - Thank you for an excellent chat session today. This will definitely be a chat worth visiting and reading through in the Camp chat archives at button in weeks to come. And thank you Expedition Team Members for bringing some really great questions to the chat.

James Moonroe: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:08AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Do you guys have air up in space

Marcy, Camp Counselor: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:09AM PST (-0800 GMT)
James Monroe and crew - next week on Dec 7th, we have Dr Tom Fuller from UC Santa Barbara's remote access telescope project coming on for a chat. He is someone you can ask your physical astronomy question to - hope you can join us !

James Moonroe: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:10AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Can you guys see the erath from the moon

: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:11AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Darlene, 6th grade teacher: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 9:06AM PST (-0800 GMT) We have seen a reference to the Chumash stone disks-on-sticks that are hand-held artifacts, carved, and suggested to be some type of astronomical device ? If you agree with this idea of what they were, how do you think they were used ?

Brenda and Joanna : . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:33AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Ryan is ready to chat

James Monroe: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 11:49AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Whats the map about?

James Monroe: . . . . Wed, Dec 1, 12:06AM PST (-0800 GMT)
Did the chomash ever worship the stars?-samantha